Eisha Armstrong: Pragmatic Strategies for Managing Change

Andrew Skotzko [00:00:00]:

Eisha, Welcome to the show. How are you today?

Eisha Armstrong [00:00:02]:

I'm doing well, Andrew, thank you. Good to be here.

Andrew Skotzko [00:00:05]:

Oh, it's so good to have you. Thanks for taking some time out of your day and spending it with me and our audience. So we're going to be covering a lot of ground in this conversation, particularly around some of the tricky, thorny bits around how do you change an organization, and all of the wonderfully messy human stuff that comes along with such a journey. But really quick, just for a bit, context, I'd love it if you could share with the audience a little bit of your journey, how you got to where you are today and found this as a particular focus.

Eisha Armstrong [00:00:34]:

Sure, yeah. So I grew up in Kansas, actually in small town called Manhattan, Kansas, and it was a great place to grow up. And then I was the oldest of three children, and I went to school in Lawrence, Kansas, about 90 minutes down the road, and ended up being a liberal arts major. So did not study engineering, studied econ, but not math. And it ended up being the perfect background for what I ultimately went into, which was research. So a lot of I think product leaders come out of backgrounds where they've built things. My background was really in researching. And so my first job out of college was as a research analyst for a company that was headquartered in Washington, DC.

Eisha Armstrong [00:01:37]:

Doing market research for their clients and looking at market opportunities, market sizing, customer needs, things like that. And ultimately that ended up being a springboard to product management. But again, like I said, not in terms of making things, but more in terms of researching.

Andrew Skotzko [00:02:00]:

No, I love my one of my things here is that I think there is no default path into product. Everyone has a weird version of their own thing. There's very few people I meet here. They're like, oh, yeah, I was an engineer at Google, and then I switched into a product and did the rotational program, and here I am. So I love that. What kind of research were you doing? You said market research, but there's so many sort of subparts of that. Did you have a specialty or a favorite thing that you carried forward into your product days?

Eisha Armstrong [00:02:28]:

Yeah, so I started out doing research for large financial service institutions, so banks, insurance companies, and again, it was all around market opportunities. So they were looking to make new products and trying to understand what were emerging consumer needs. And so that's the type of research that I did, which, again, you can see does start to make sense then, that I went into product. But yeah, I was looking for new market opportunities for new products, for financial service institutions.

Andrew Skotzko [00:03:01]:

Oh, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I think also quite relevant to some of the topics we're going to be covering today because there's many of those companies, those non tech native companies of which finance is a big one, who are very much in the wheelhouse of the topics we're going to explore today. So. I'm especially curious, though. We're going to start to shift here in just a second. But now, if I understand it correctly, you're spending a lot of your time helping other organizations transform and really become product organizations. And that's whether they are a non tech native of the kind you might expect, like a finance company or even something even further afield of a consulting company, like an accenture, a deloitte. Fill in the blank here.

Andrew Skotzko [00:03:40]:

I'm so curious, though. What do you notice that connects the dots for those? Because I could imagine someone looking at them saying they're all the same because they're services companies trying to become product companies. But on the other hand, we know there's a lot more complexity than that.

Eisha Armstrong [00:03:54]:

Yeah. I mean, fundamentally, it's about thinking differently, about how you make money and the role that technology can play. Not just in automating your back office, making your back office more efficient, but in how you deliver value through your products or your services. And so it's those two things, business model transformation and the role of technology that make the needs of the companies that I work with, I think, different in kind than if we were just talking about new product innovation.

Andrew Skotzko [00:04:28]:

Yeah, so let's zoom in on that, because I think that's something I'm starting to see a lot more of as well. I mean, even within sort of let's call them tech native companies, you still have some of these fears around business model transformation. For example, company I was working with very recently was making a big shift from a transactional to a subscription or a recurring business model. I'm sure that had probably a lot of the big fears that you see. So let's zoom in on that. Talk to me a little bit more about business model transformation. What are the big three fears that come up around that and how do we start to deal with it?

Eisha Armstrong [00:05:01]:

Yeah. So I think the first one and you see this a lot with the example that you just gave Andrew, is you change when you receive revenue. So rather than receiving revenue upfront in a larger chunk, you're exchanging that for smaller bits of revenue over a longer period of time. So customer lifetime value becomes much more of an issue. And it may have some really important impacts on things like cash flow, for example, that you have to think through. So that's kind of one fear is just how are we going to make this adjustment in terms of when we receive revenue? And that may result in behaviors that I often see where people don't change because they'd rather get the revenue in the door, the larger contract in the door now, than have any type of unpredictability around whether or not you'll continue to get that annuity stream over time.

Andrew Skotzko [00:06:06]:

No, that makes perfect sense and it matches what I'm seeing as well. So let's talk a little bit more about that because I know in your book you talk about innovation and is sort of this heart of it's the first seed crystal out of which this whole product organization can grow. And there's so much in that world of innovation itself just in terms of thinking about risk and abundance and unpredictability and the uncertainty of it all. And so I feel like there's a weird dichotomy here because product people who are used to doing that work, that's just sort of the water we live in and swim in. But I think we forget what it's like to not live in those waters and how scary that is for people who are used to very strict forecasts and having to hit those numbers. So how do you bridge that gap?

Eisha Armstrong [00:06:53]:

Yeah, so one is just what you talked about, like naming the fears. So there's always fear around risk, unpredictability uncertainty. And that can happen in product innovation. It can really, quite frankly, happen in any type of organizational change. So that's important to get out on the table and name it. There's also fears of what are people going to think when I start saying no. Because the whole concept of going to a product and thinking about market segment needs is there are going to be some people whose needs you're not meeting. Right.

Eisha Armstrong [00:07:36]:

And if you're in an organization where that's not a well developed muscle, that can actually seem scary and that can be a real fear. It's not just I don't know how to say no to a customer request, I'm afraid to say no. And that's, I think, another really important one to name. And then you also mentioned abundance thinking and a big one that we see is fear of cannibalization because oftentimes the organizations that we're working with are not sunsetting their legacy businesses. They're launching new tech enabled products alongside their legacy businesses. And there's a real fear of cannibalization. Whether it's a legitimate fear or not, there is a fear and that can really result in a lot of sabotage for the new strategy if you're not careful.

Andrew Skotzko [00:08:30]:

That makes sense. I'd love to explore I think this may take most of our time in this conversation, but there's sort of three areas as I'm listening to you that are pattern matching against the conversations I've had, let's say, in the last two months that I think would be very practical and useful for folks listening. That is where I feel like a lot of the rubber meets the road in this conversation. So number one is driven by the unpredictability and the uncertainty. So I'd love to talk about forecasting, particularly at the executive level because that's scary for people. Secondly, I'd love to talk about what you just named, which is this transitioning right the transition model between what you're doing now and what you might do instead. And number three, I'd love to spend some time actually unpacking the dynamics of organizational change and change management. Because my spidey sense, just from talking to a lot of product leaders lately, folks who have spent their whole career in product effectively, they know that's like an important and big thing, but they know they don't know how to do it.

Andrew Skotzko [00:09:31]:

And so I think to learn from someone like yourself would be such a gift. So how does that sound as a trajectory here?

Eisha Armstrong [00:09:37]:

Perfect.

Andrew Skotzko [00:09:38]:

Okay, great. So let's dive into the let's just get right into it here. Talk to me about forecasting because I remember sitting with a C suite about three weeks ago and watching this debate unfold at the table where the head of product is going like, well, we can't tell you exactly when XYZ is going to be available and the head of revenue going, are you freaking kidding me? And the CEO going, but I have to make this promise to investors. So what do we do about this?

Eisha Armstrong [00:10:04]:

Yeah, so usually when that happens, and this happens often, is I talk about, well, what are leading measures? Right? So what are indicators that we're tracking well? Or what are indicators that we're not tracking well? And people who've been in product for a while are used to thinking about underlying assumptions. It's the same thing. It's like your forecast is based on a set of assumptions. So spending the time to really dig into and lay out what those assumptions are is an important part around everyone getting more confidence in the forecast. I will say, especially for a publicly traded company, no, forecast is not the right answer. You can certainly do some education with your investors around unpredictability, and that's the role of the CEO and the head of IR to work on. But we have to at least put some type of for everyone internally when we're going to hit certain milestones and then make transparent those milestones. And the timing for those milestones are based on a set of assumptions.

Eisha Armstrong [00:11:16]:

Here are those assumptions and then those assumptions can turn into indicators, warning light indicators. Are we tracking well? Are we not tracking well? So that's typically how I address that.

Andrew Skotzko [00:11:30]:

It seems like to do that. And I like that way of thinking, right. We're starting to unpack and make explicit the thought process so that we can at least all look at the same be on the same page and look at the same thing together. I guess the part that I'm trying to imagine myself in the seat of somewhere between a CEO and a CPO and how they might be grappling over this, and I'm imagining that a head of product might be saying, okay, look, yes, we have these roadmaps and we are pushing towards these not just deliverables, but really the business outcomes. We want those deliverables, to actually deliver. And the CEO going, I love that. And this feels extremely uncertain because you are telling me that I can't count on XYZ business outcome and yet I have to make a promise to investors, whether you're a public company or a private company, trying to raise whatever series B. So let's zoom in a little more on that.

Andrew Skotzko [00:12:21]:

How do we deal with that?

Eisha Armstrong [00:12:23]:

Yeah, so in that situation, I would say we need to look at what are we hoping to learn through the milestones? So even if we don't get the business outcome, what are the questions that we'll have answered? What are the hypotheses that we'll have formed or validated by that point? Because you and I both know that we may run down a path and we may find out, oh, that was the wrong hypothesis, but we have to say, okay, at that point in time, we will at least have an answer to this question, or we will at least have validated or invalidated our hypothesis. So again, we all need to be held accountable to outcomes. But the rate of learning and what you learn can be an outcome.

Andrew Skotzko [00:13:12]:

How do you attach? Because forecasts are fundamentally trying to make a promise about we're trying to add some predictability to what is inherently unpredictable, in particular, future revenue, essentially. So in that case, how do you coach people to think about essentially the financial value of that learning, where they're saying, I was trying to do a forecast with dollars on it, but now you're telling me, oh, we're learning, and I know learning is good, but so I can't take learning to the bank yet.

Eisha Armstrong [00:13:41]:

No, but I mean, you can stop spending money on things that aren't working. So that's one way you can identify new markets, new opportunities, new needs that you didn't previously see, and that's another way. So I actually don't think it's that hard to translate into financial results, but may require being a little bit more creative in how you think about it.

Andrew Skotzko [00:14:05]:

Yeah. So I'm super curious if you have an example you could walk me through of how this forecasting actually plays out in reality. And also related to that is how the transition between offerings plays out in reality. You mentioned earlier this example of a transactional model to a recurring model.

Eisha Armstrong [00:14:25]:

Yeah, and actually a lot of our clients are dealing with this because again, we're primarily working with non tech native companies who are usually in the services industry. So making their money through arms and legs as opposed to product, let alone tech enabled product. And what they're trying to do is find more scale through technology and through standardization and also better revenue visibility through that business model transformation, for example, to go to a subscription model. And usually what they need to think through is one, how do I make the investment in a way that is incremental, so that we're not running down a path where perhaps there is a lot of uncertainty and committing a large amount of resources up front and also degrading internal goodwill about the transformation. But we're still learning enough to test the concept. So that's where rapid prototyping is very, very important for these organizations so that they're releasing investment and resources as they learn more about the market. And they're giving themselves an out to stop spending money on something that perhaps there isn't a market need in terms of dealing with the business model transformation. It also allows to kind of parallel process and get the rest of the organization gradually used to the idea of this is our new way of making money.

Eisha Armstrong [00:16:04]:

And I think that's important because this is not just about a product team making a product, but it's about the entire organization changing the way that they make money. So you've got the sales force involved, for example, you've got marketing thinking completely differently. If you're maintaining your legacy business, they're probably wondering, am I going to become obsolete? What's going to happen to me? So those are things that we're typically working through. One organization that we were working with, they were focused on delivering leadership training to large organizations around the globe as well as a lot of government agencies. And they would come in and do these very customized trainings and coaching and assessments. And everything was super custom to the needs of the leadership competency model that their clients used, the different types of roles that were going to be involved and so on. And they were interested in creating a subscription based model. And they had a hypothesis that there was a need at the kind of sub C level, sub VP, so call it Director, senior Director for Leadership Training that could be touching on the same competencies, but delivered in a more cost effective way.

Andrew Skotzko [00:17:37]:

Okay.

Eisha Armstrong [00:17:37]:

So that they could roll it out to a larger market and that this is something that could be sold on a subscription basis. And they talked to a lot of their buyers about this. And their buyers were heads of training and development. They all thought this was a great idea. They brought us in to do some concept refinement and testing. So we went out and talked to users. So think about the directors, the senior directors who would be receiving this leadership training. And what we found out is that they would never attend this.

Eisha Armstrong [00:18:11]:

They didn't see any value in it. They were like, the last thing I want is to log onto some platform and get some leadership training. And it was a really good lesson for our client in the importance of testing with not just your buyers, but also your users. But also then back to my point earlier about the value of learning. We did uncover that what they wanted was they wanted to talk to each other and they wanted more opportunities to do peer learning and mentorship. So it was an opportunity for this client to think differently about how could they do something at a larger scale, still meet the need of how do you develop the leadership competency gaps at that level, but in a completely different solution than the one they had originally envisioned.

Andrew Skotzko [00:19:03]:

So I really like that example. What I'm really wondering about is that kind of learning cadence. That sort of learning cycle is something that anyone who's used to being in tech enabled product, that's run of the bill, that's normal. Right? We're like of course, but that obviously was a big learning for them. How did you all help them metabolize that learning and take a different set of actions going forward based on that?

Eisha Armstrong [00:19:28]:

Yeah, again, it was back to understanding what were their true business objectives with this. And it was to not only grow their market, but to create something that was more recurring and more scalable. So we were looking still for unmet needs for jobs to be done within the users when we were talking to them in addition to testing the concept. And that's where we uncovered this need of learning from each other, learning from peers, getting more peer mentorship. So again, I think it's important when working with organizations who are trying to transform to be more product centric, more product friendly, to focus on the positive components of rapid test and learn and prototyping. It's not just about killing ideas more quickly, but it's about being able to discover things that perhaps you didn't know before and then capitalizing on that learning.

Andrew Skotzko [00:20:29]:

Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. One of the things I'm wondering about is you talk about the power shifts within an organization, right. Whether that's I think probably the most common one that people talk about is sort of the sales and marketing power shift and how that trades off or is perceived to trade off against product. Whether or not that's accurate is maybe a different conversation. But I guess one of the other things I'm wondering about is actually how this affects the staffing and funding. And let me give a little context of what I mean. So a company I was talking with recently is in the middle of such a transformation as we are describing here. And they have products, but they're not really a tech enabled company, but they're really trying to make the shift to being a true modern tech enabled product company as we're describing here.

Andrew Skotzko [00:21:19]:

And one of the things that came up as a real blocker internal to their organization is literally the way they structure and fund teams. And I'm curious if this is something you see a lot. In this particular case they had almost like an internal agency model where they had these sort of business units, funding, sort of a centralized product and It organization. And so you almost had a literal agency model internally where they said like, okay, we are funding this amount because we want these deliverables back, which is the it's, it's almost the antithesis of what we would like to see in product land. Right. That's like literally predefining roadmaps. It's not at all about outcomes, et cetera, et cetera. The problem was how they structure the teams and fund teams.

Andrew Skotzko [00:22:03]:

How do you see this playing out? I mean, I'm just citing one example. I'm sure you've seen many more. How do you see this play out and what do you do about it? Because that's like a thorny one.

Eisha Armstrong [00:22:12]:

Yeah, and I think the model you're talking about is one that we see early on in the transformation because they don't have the scale yet. So a centrally funded, like you said, agency model is a less expensive way to start to run down this strategy. So I don't think it's unreasonable to begin with that. I think what's important and we try to do is educate companies about the importance of evolving your organizational model as you become more mature. And your model will and it sounds obvious when I say it out loud, but your model should evolve over time. So that if your goal is to become a product centric or more, I would even say more product friendly organization, then product has to be the business. It can't be a shared service, but the initial path may be you start with it as a shared service, as an agency model, like you said, but then know that over time you're going to migrate that back into the business because you have to be close to the users, to the buyers. So that's typically what we do.

Eisha Armstrong [00:23:33]:

And I think people get that because they know, again, there's a fear, right. That's why I called the book fearless. There's a fear of uncertainty. And so you want to do things incrementally. That doesn't mean that you need to do things slowly. So you can start with a small increment in terms of we're going to set up a central product organization, but then know that pretty quickly that function is going to go back out to the business because that's where it needs to be.

Andrew Skotzko [00:24:02]:

Yeah. So talk to me a little bit more about that distinction between incremental, basically the trade off between incremental and how that's not the same as going slowly. And I'd love to understand a little more what the actual transition path looks like from, let's say step one is this sort of centralized product and then we'll say the end of the path, or the obvious end of the path is where you have product fully embedded out in all the business units. They have their own product teams, et cetera, et cetera. How do you get from A to B?

Eisha Armstrong [00:24:30]:

Yeah. So again, it depends on what your strategy is. But let's say your strategy is to become really much more product centric than you are. Okay? So starting with a product as a shared service. And I hate even saying that just rubs me the wrong way, but that's what we'll call it. Okay, you start with that because it's not only less upfront investment, but it's also easier to ensure that you are kind of setting up a way of doing product when it's just one team and creating kind of that level of excellence before distributing out in the business. Then what typically happens, you launch some products, they're doing well, they're going up their maturity curve. Those then make sense to be put out in the business where you've got product managers, you're continuing to improve upon the product, but it's less about new product innovation and it's more about mature product management.

Eisha Armstrong [00:25:41]:

And that's a good time to go to a hybrid model and then eventually you want to move new product innovation out to the business as well. But that's a common migration that we see.

Andrew Skotzko [00:25:51]:

How long does that take? I don't know. I should just stop there. How long does that take? Because I think people probably have very different numbers listening in their mind, listening.

Eisha Armstrong [00:26:03]:

To you say that it depends. So I would say a large over half of our clients who are successful are accelerating their strategy through acquisition.

Andrew Skotzko [00:26:19]:

Okay?

Eisha Armstrong [00:26:20]:

And that can rapidly shorten the time frame for this. If you are trying to do it on your own, this could take a decade. But if you are doing this through acquisition, you can significantly shrink it.

Andrew Skotzko [00:26:40]:

Okay, so let's explore that a little bit because kind of the third pillar we wanted to explore here was this idea of the change management aspect. And an acquisition seems like about as good of an entry into that topic as one I can think of because you could buy the best product company in the world and then you still have the integration problem at the cultural level. And I don't know the numbers, but I know that most acquisitions don't quite work out the way people hoped. And I have been told anecdotally that usually it's this sort of cultural piece, the integration piece. So let's unpack that a little bit. Talk to me about so how do you do guess, you know, maybe address it from two sides. How do you do it well? And what are the traps people fall into know, kind of kills it from working the way they want.

Eisha Armstrong [00:27:23]:

So Andrew, I think the first thing is to understand what are all the reasons why you're acquiring the company? Is this just to improve total shareholder return or is it to accelerate your transformation? Because if there are things like accelerating the transformation that are a real part of the strategy, then you need to ask yourself, well, how am I going to measure that? How am I going to account for that? And there may be an acquisition that is not as financially successful as we think it should be, but it has a knock on effect of accelerating the transformation in the rest of the organization. So I think that's important to just be clear about at the beginning is what is the purpose of this acquisition? And there are other reasons, competitive reasons, why you might also be acquiring a company that aren't going to show up immediately in TSR. So that's the first thing. And then the second thing is, is this a product that is going to be sold alongside or in conjunction with our current legacy business, or is this a completely greenfield opportunity for us if it's going to be a product that's going to be sold alongside? So, again, our example, working with services companies, they may be transitioning from services to what we call bundled solutions, where perhaps there's a data component that's bundled into the services. There's a tech component that serves as a maintenance product, for example, something like that, that is much more important in those cases. It's much more important to get the integration right, because you won't have adoption of the product, organization of the product into the bundled solution if you don't get the integration right. So I think that's another thing to be really think through is how is this going to be brought to market and what's the impact on our existing business? And then the third one is addressing, just like you would if you weren't transforming the organization through an acquisition, is addressing the impact on everyone else. And again, there's a lot of fear.

Eisha Armstrong [00:29:45]:

Fear of uncertainty, fear of obsolescence, fear of saying no, fear of championing a failed product that has to be brought to the surface and has to be addressed by leaders in order for any type of change to be successful, whether or not that change is being accelerated through an acquisition or being done organically by building a movement.

Andrew Skotzko [00:30:09]:

Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. And fear is really what I wanted to unpack next. So as you said, it has to be spoken to, it has to be named, has to be brought forward and worked through. I'm curious, what have you seen be most effective in doing that? Because of course, it's somewhat context dependent and what the fears are will shape it. But I'm curious if there are kind of a top one or two practices that a leader listening to this could put into place. If they are sensing that fear within their operating environment, what can they actually do?

Eisha Armstrong [00:30:43]:

Yeah, so the first one is to model fearlessness as a leader. And that includes, like you said, naming it. These are the things I'm afraid of. But this is how I'm working through the fear. And there's like a cute little acronym that we've created for the companies that we work with called Leap. And the L stands for listen to your intuition. The E stands for expect less than perfect. The A is ask for help and the P is practice gratitude.

Eisha Armstrong [00:31:18]:

And these. Are very simple, mainstream wellness mental health practices that when they're modeled by leaders and again, not just talked about but actually modeled in their behavior, can start to shift an organization. Again, it doesn't happen overnight. If you're trying to build a movement, again, like I said, it could take a decade, but that's where it starts. So that's the first thing is that leadership behavior. And then the second one is when we talk about organizational change and culture change, we forget that this isn't just about naming behaviors, practicing behaviors, but it's making sure that the entire operating model is set up to support those behaviors. So you brought up the point about structure, you brought up the point about funding team levels. We talked about forecasts and measures and incentives, competency models.

Eisha Armstrong [00:32:21]:

All of those things will need to be updated to reflect the new behaviors that you want to see in the organization.

Andrew Skotzko [00:32:29]:

Yeah, that makes sense. I'm trying to understand what that I'm just trying to put myself in the shoes of some of the folks I've spoken with lately and try to see, okay, where would they where do people get tripped up with this? What's the thing that they just overlook? Not for they have the best of intentions, but where do people stumble?

Eisha Armstrong [00:32:50]:

Yeah, I think the first one is assuming if we teach everybody the right process and best practices in product discovery and management and innovation, that they will change their behavior.

Andrew Skotzko [00:33:04]:

Okay.

Eisha Armstrong [00:33:04]:

And that is simply not true. We're humans and we behave in seemingly irrational ways. I would argue primarily driven by fear. Learning best practices, having a great process doesn't address that. So I think that's the first place. I think the second one is just assuming if you bring in the right people and the right skills, that you will be successful. And that's what I was alluding to when I talked about integrating the acquisition. It's not just about how is this acquisition going to help us accelerate in our product strategy, but it's how are we going to bring the rest of the organization along and help them feel like they are an important part of this shift and that they're not being marginalized and that they can change their behavior.

Eisha Armstrong [00:34:00]:

But they need to change their behavior in order for us to be successful.

Andrew Skotzko [00:34:05]:

Yeah. So I am fascinated by the topic you've opened up here talking about behavior change. I mean, I agree with you. This is where this whole thing lives and dies, right? And we're speaking about organizational behavior change, which is if individual behavior change is hard, right. Like, try cutting your bad habits and adding your good ones. Right. We know that's hard. Doing it at an organizational level is exponentially harder.

Andrew Skotzko [00:34:28]:

I'm so curious if there's like, yeah, how do you do that that just feels like that's like the heart of this thing. And I would love to hear how you make this actually happen.

Eisha Armstrong [00:34:41]:

Yeah. So again, I think it starts with getting really honest about what is required. And what I keep coming back to is we have to acknowledge that people are really afraid. And they're not just afraid of change, that's I think overly simplistic. They're afraid of losing the things that have defined their personal worthiness and value. So you're talking about things that cut to the core of people to change. That, again, the Leap acronym that we use. It's simple, but I think it's important because it starts with listening to your intuition, getting really in touch with that core inner wisdom that we all have.

Eisha Armstrong [00:35:38]:

Quieting the mind, quieting the chatter, so that we can really hear what is going to make the difference in this moment, what's going to help me connect with that person, what's the right answer for the business, for the strategy? And getting back to a place where we trust that inner wisdom, I think, is a very critical part of this. And again, if you look at the research, the companies and the leaders who have made space for mindfulness practices within their organizations are better equipped to change, better equipped to deal with volatility. And the ones that haven't, which I would say is most of corporate America really do struggle with this. And that's why this has been incredibly hard for a lot of organizations, why there's so many books on change management. I think with becoming a product centric organization, it's really about shifting behavior from always having to be right, knowing the right answer, taking a long time to make decisions, not being able to say no, kind of assuming everything is a zero sum game to a much more expansive way of thinking.

Andrew Skotzko [00:37:01]:

Yeah, that's beautifully said. I'm so fascinated by these topics, and I feel like we could talk for literally hours on them. One question. I'm just trying to come up with some actionable takeaways honestly for myself, because I want to go do some more homework on this. If I could go read one book on change management based on everything you've seen is actually going to help me affect change in an.org. Is there one that you would recommend.

Eisha Armstrong [00:37:28]:

One of my favorite ones or many that I would recommend as a quick.

Andrew Skotzko [00:37:31]:

Aside, in addition to your own, obviously.

Eisha Armstrong [00:37:33]:

Yeah, and mine is very specific to the needs of organizations who are undergoing this particular type of product transformation. But I think one of the best overall change management organizations is Amy Edmondson's fearless organization. And it's really what inspired me, where she talks about the importance of psychological safety. Because, again, change requires uncertainty. If we don't feel safe, we won't go do something uncertain. If we aren't in touch with our inner wisdom, we won't go do something uncertain. If we don't think that we can make the pie bigger, then we won't commit resources to something where the payoff is uncertain. But if we can create a sense of safety, expansive thinking, grounded in our inner truths and wisdom, then we're much more likely to not only change, but to take the risks required in order to be successful.

Andrew Skotzko [00:38:43]:

No, thank you for that. And big shout out to Amy Edmondson. Thanks. It's one of my favorite, actually, earlier guests on this show, episode number nine. That everyone I will link to that in the show notes, and people should definitely go check it out. She is such a boss, so I'm so glad you named her work. I'm a huge fan. So I want to start to close out this conversation with a couple of rapid fire questions and just whatever comes to mind.

Andrew Skotzko [00:39:07]:

I'd love to hear where it goes. So I'm curious. One of the things that I've learned over the years is that it's the questions we ask ourselves that shape how we think and therefore what we do and then what happens in our lives. And so I'm curious, is there a question you would have the listener start asking themselves that you think would make a big difference for them? Yeah.

Eisha Armstrong [00:39:28]:

What does your gut tell you? What is your gut telling you in this moment?

Andrew Skotzko [00:39:35]:

Okay. I like it. Now, moving on from that, I'm curious, what have you found in terms of your own navigating of these waters? Is there a certain practice that's helped you to kind of keep an even keel amidst all the volatility, the uncertainty, the waves of change?

Eisha Armstrong [00:39:52]:

Yeah. So I don't know if I mentioned this earlier, but I'm a certified yoga teacher. I teach a yoga class every Tuesday morning, and I practice yoga almost daily.

Andrew Skotzko [00:40:03]:

What kind?

Eisha Armstrong [00:40:05]:

Ashtanga yoga. Okay. And I call it my meditation and movement. So very, very important for me.

Andrew Skotzko [00:40:13]:

Love it. Love it. I'm trying to get into yoga more, so I'm very deep into meditation already, but yoga, I feel like, is next on the list. So it's great encouragement. So following on the former question, is there a bit of homework you would give me or another leader listening to this, to actually take action on these ideas, put them into practice? What's the starting point for someone who's like, okay, I hear you Eisha, little overwhelmed here. Where do I start?

Eisha Armstrong [00:40:40]:

Yeah. Name your fears. It is a very common, I think, technique. You said name it, and we say name it to tame it. What are all the things that you're afraid of? And not just, again, the obvious ones, like fear of change, fear of losing money, but fear of what people might think of you, fear that perhaps you're not everything you thought you were. Right. So really getting to those fears around personal worthiness and value and fear of being unloved, I think it's so important to try to take an inventory of what those fears might be, because once we get them out on paper, we often realize, okay, I can manage these in the moment. This is not that bad, but when we're denying our fear, it's really hard to yeah, absolutely.

Andrew Skotzko [00:41:36]:

Absolutely. Well, Eisha, this has been a fascinating conversation. I thank you for your time and for sharing your wisdom with us. So, first of all, thank you for being here and for everything you share with us. Everybody, please go check out the new book, Fearless. And Eisha, is there anything you'd love to leave the listeners with? And where can people find you online if they'd like to follow up?

Eisha Armstrong [00:41:56]:

Yeah, no, this has been my sincere pleasure, Andrew. Thanks for having me. Best place to follow up is LinkedIn. It's Eisha Tierney Armstrong. Tierney is my maiden name, but that's the best place to reach out.

Andrew Skotzko [00:42:10]:

Awesome. Well, thanks so much for being here, Eisha, and congratulations on the new book.

Eisha Armstrong [00:42:15]:

Thank you.